As Long as the Rivers Flow: The Legacy of Treaty 5

“Treaty is powerful. It’s not just a document or an agreement of the past. It’s a living agreement,” says Cree lawyer and advocate Deanne Kasokeo. For nearly 150 years, Treaty 5 has shaped the lives of Cree and Anishinaabe communities across northern Manitoba and Saskatchewan—and its story is far from settled. Also called the Winnipeg Treaty, it included more First Nation communities than any other in Canada and promised land, tools, education, and health care. In practice, those agreements have been unevenly realized, and communities continue to navigate their impacts today. In this episode, Kasokeo shares how her family history and her grandmother’s teachings drive her to defend treaty rights and reconnect communities with their heritage. Then, Chief Maureen Brown of Opaskwayak Cree Nation reflects on the long-term effects of colonial policies, the importance of passing knowledge to the next generation, and why she remains hopeful for the future.

Listen to the episode:

Angela Misri: If you’ve ever stood at the edge of a northern Manitoba Lake, you know the feeling the quiet is so deep it almost hums. This is Treaty Five territory, land of water, muskeg and forest, home to Cree and Anishinaabe peoples for countless generations.

Treaty Five, also called the Winnipeg Treaty, is the largest of the numbered treaties in Manitoba. It included the largest number of First Nation communities under a single treaty. It was first signed in 1875 between the federal government, the Ojibwe and the swampy Cree of Lake Winnipeg. Over the next few decades, amendments stretched the treaty’s reach even further. The treaty wasn’t fully realized until 1910 when the last bands had formally joined and reserve lands were officially designated. The nations who entered treaty five were seeking security, farming tools, protection from encroachment, food and health care after years of hunger and displacement, Canada, however, had narrower goals to secure land for settlement, transportation and future development.

The terms they offered were less generous than earlier treaties, signatories received $5 per person, 160 acres of reserve land per family, some tools and the promise of schools and medical support. On paper, it looked like a partnership in ceremony. It was a sacred promise to share the land. As long as the sun shines, the grass grows and the rivers flow. In practice, many of those promises were broken. Welcome to the Canadian Time Machine. I’m Angela Misri. This podcast receives funding from the Government of Canada and is produced by The Walrus Lab. Nearly 150 years later, the legacy of treaty five is still shaping daily life in northern communities to understand what it means to live with those broken and enduring promises, we begin with someone whose own family history runs straight through treaty. Deanne Kasokeo 2:18 – I’m mostly Cree. I have some Assiniboine as well, and some Scottish and French as well. Big Bear, who is Mistahi-maskwa, who’s my great, great, great grandfather. My great grandmother was Mary Pimi. She was married to his youngest son, Horse Child.

Angela Misri: That’s Deanne Kasokeo, a lawyer, advocate and educator whose work is rooted in the stories passed down by her grandmother. For her, this isn’t just history, it’s family.

Deanne Kasokeo: The women were the ones that made the decisions as they should, right? Because we’re the keepers of the home fire. We know what’s best for the children in the community as a whole. But in saying that the men and the women played equal roles. It was always that way within our system, but it was always the women who made the last decision. So she was a true matriarch in my community, and she was always the person that everybody went to.

Angela Misri: Her grandmother also pushed Deanne towards education, but with a very specific purpose, to use the tools of the Canadian legal system to fight for her people.

Deanne Kasokeo: She never spoke English. She spoke strictly Cree and the really old Cree. They didn’t want me to speak it because of the residential school system and what happened to a lot of our people within that system. I was put mostly into white schools to get my education, and that was part of the reason what she had said to me is that I need to learn the paper of the white man, because that’s what they beat us in treaty with. She said, “Go get your education. Go learn that paper. Come home and help your people.”

Angela Misri: That advice shaped everything Deanne went on to do, but also came with challenges. She found herself not only trying to educate Canadians, but also her own people. She says that colonization has broken the chain of knowledge, leaving many in her community disconnected from their treaty rights. Still, her purpose was clear, to protect those rights, and for Diane, treaties aren’t just old documents.

Deanne Kasokeo: A lot of people think that this is a free pass or a free card. But what people don’t understand are the impacts of colonization through colonial policies, especially with treaty. Treaty has always been put on the back burner and never spoken about because of the power that treaty is. Treaty is powerful. It’s not just a document or an agreement of the past. It’s a living agreement that is sacred, and it was made with the pipe. It was made in ceremony on behalf of my people. My people didn’t take treaty lightly,

Angela Misri: But those sacred agreements continue to be undermined by colonial policies. Take the settlement promises, often called Cows and Plows, livestock and farm equipment that were supposed to help communities build sustainable livelihoods, but rarely arrived as promised, or the medicine chest clause meant to ensure ongoing health care that Canada failed to honor.

Deanne Kasokeo: The biggest detriment of colonial policies that have been affecting my people negatively is the residential school system, and I was a residential school lawyer for six years, so I know far too well the impacts that has had on my people.

Angela Misri: The damage didn’t end when the schools closed. The trauma carries through generations, shaping lives, communities and even the way indigenous people are treated in the justice system. And yet, despite all of this, Diane never lost sight of her role as an advocate.

Deanne Kasokeo: In my work, I have to advocate for a treaty all the time and advocate for my people and what we require in order to move forward. And for sure, it has to be the recognition of treaty and that we are all treaty people. We are all party to treaty.

Angela Misri: She even worked with the Living Sky school division in North Battleford, Saskatchewan to make sure teachers understood that too, that treaties aren’t just for indigenous communities, but for everyone living on this land.

Deanne Kasokeo: I developed their treaty education program for teachers and resources. And worked with the teachers, I would ask them the question, Are you treaty and they’d say, No, we don’t have treaty rights. And I said, Well, do you own a house? Do you own land? Yeah, we do. Well, that’s your treaty, right, but it’s not reciprocal, because Canada does not honour those treaties.

Angela Misri: And at the heart of all her work is that same drive her grandmother instilled in her to speak for her people and to remind Canada that these are still living agreements.

Deanne Kasokeo: It’s really hard to address treaty, and even in my work with with court cases, it’s really difficult to address treaty because Canada does not want to address anything that is related to the language of treaty, all I can do as an advocate is to be able to educate the court and let them know that, you know, okay, no, this is who we are, and this is what we want, and you know, this is still our land.

Angela Misri: Deanne’s story shows us how treaty history lives on through families, through resilience and through the responsibility to educate others, but her experience is also part of a much bigger picture. To understand what treaty five means today for communities, for leadership and for the future, we turn to someone who carries that responsibility every day. Hi Chief Brown.

Chief Maureen Brown: Good morning. My name is Maureen Brown. I’m the Chief of Opaskwayak Cree Nation. I look forward to our conversation this morning.

Angela Misri: So nearly 150 years after the first Treaty Five agreements were signed. What do you see as the most lasting impact of the treaty on your communities today?

Chief Maureen Brown: So the lasting impact that I see in our community today is the structures that have been in place to marginalize our people continues to be in the mindset of the people, and it’s going to take a while for the paradigm shift to happen, because we have been conditioned to see the government as the be all and the end all. You know back in the day, I grew up in the 60s and 70s, and fortunately, I witnessed the resurgence. I witnessed the strength of our former leaders and the elders during that time, who knew who they were, who recognize the limitations that treaty had well not treated the definition of treaty, which is the Indian Act, right? That’s the administrative tool of the Indian Act and their definition of what occurred. So for our leaders during that time to recognize who we are, as First Nation people and how this, you know, limitations, have to get a note to leave the reserve. You know, can get higher education legislated not to get higher education not allowed to challenge the government on, you know, their responsibility to ensure that the treaties were being fulfilled the honor of the crown. And all of those had an impact, and I still see the impact in the communities today. And so that’s kind of turned to okay, everything has to go to Chief and Council. You know what? I mean? It’s like it used to annoy my parents, actually, because they recognize. Recognize the dependency that was being formed, you know that the government imposed on our people? And you know, I heard that a lot from the elders, they’ve passed on now, but they always had this fight to challenge that.

Angela Misri: So I’m—not to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you’ve taken up the mantle of that right? So you grew up with that. Your parents were talking about, your leaders were talking about challenging the status quo of what was put upon you. And you’ve not to put words in your mouth again, but you’ve taken up that challenge, it sounds like.

Chief Maureen Brown: Absolutely, you know, I grew up during a time where I was privy, and for some odd reason I don’t know why I was pretty to us, you know, experiences to witness how our teachings came through under times of great anguish, you know, and how our people rose above those situations. And I was there as a child, as a young teenager, as a young adult, to witness it during strategic times, like stepping stones of building character, you know. And I know that I’ve had extensive conversations with elders now that actually in the country that have done so much to the development of our people, and our greatest concern right now is passing on my knowledge and our teachings to the younger generation. I just was happy to be breathing and so now we see the effects of that, because there is no foundational substance for them to know what is a treaty? Oh, sure, I’ll sign that agreement. That sounds great, you know, like that. So it’s very problematic and very troublesome to a lot of the older generation who recognize the responsibility of the government in representing the crown to uphold the treaties. So we’re dealing with it on our side, but the Crown is also they don’t have the historical significance and concept of the treaty in order for them to honor the crown. The honor of the crown is being jeopardized and unknowingly. You know, there really needs to be a great awareness and education for the younger generation,

Angela Misri: Yeah, but I feel like you’re carrying both ends of that. Because, like you said, like the Crown has to be responsible for this, the younger generation has to be aware of it, like everyone needs to up their understanding. So when you talk about this long history, how do you balance the promise of the treaty with the reality of what’s been delivered or not to your people?

Chief Maureen Brown: Well, it is a balancing act, really. You know, I recognize the government’s fiduciary responsibility as as representatives of the Crown to fulfill what is in the treaty and to make that happen right now, the way that I’m navigating through it as an elected leader, is working with the government and talking to them on the same playing field, at the same level that we are responsible human beings, that we need to up our game to Make sure that we are being responsible transparent, to deliver the services that we need and that we rightfully should have access to, you know, the promise of health right and right now, all first nations are facing a health crisis. Well, our country is facing a health crisis, right? But times that, by probably 10 or 20, the health crisis on the reserve is, you know, surpasses that of society, because we do not have the funding that we need. Fortunately, for OCN, for Opaskwayak, we have the capacity, we just don’t have the infrastructure.

Interestingly enough, we’re right across the river from the town. They have the infrastructure, but they do not have the capacity.

Angela Misri: That’s interesting. Yeah, each has a piece of it. Nobody has a whole.

Chief Maureen Brown: Absolutely. Okay, so let’s work together. That’s what I mean about you know, challenging our humanity. This is 2025 we need to be responsible and come up with solutions.

Angela Misri: So what lessons do you think we can take from treaty five that are important for the broader public to understand?

Chief Maureen Brown: I think one of the things right now that’s, you know, front and center in a lot of discussions with Treaty Five is the Cows and Plows. Right? The agricultural benefits. Because sometimes a lot of people get stuck in the reality of, okay, a real cow and plow. But what did it signify? Right? It signified independence. It signified economic independence. And so therefore, don’t get stuck on the narrative, you know, focus on the whole intent. You know, the spirit and intent of that and furthermore, in the treaty, it says once and for all, for the cows and plows. Well, once and for all is once and for all. For me, once and for all, for my children, once and for all. For my grandchildren, that concept isn’t there, that word that defines that is now?

Angela Misri: Yeah, it’s not a one off, yeah. So looking at that and thinking about 150 years since Treaty Five, do you have hope? I mean, it’s an open question. Do you have hope for the future?

Chief Maureen Brown: Absolutely, I have hope for the future. I have hope for humanity. I noticed that society is becoming more aware. I’m very grateful to this younger generation, because they’re more open their quest for social justice and their social responsibility is a lot greater than the previous generation. And so I’m very hopeful in that. I’m very hopeful that the Crown and the representatives of the Crown, they don’t have to come to us, that’s what people think, right? They don’t have to go to them, oh yes, they do, and that’s why they do. You know what I mean? They wouldn’t if they didn’t have to, right? And so I’m, you know, I’m hopeful that they come to the realization that they have that responsibility, the honor of the crown, and that they would uphold that integrity, because from the day that the treaties were signed, were the day that the representatives of the crown began to try to get out of it. That’s crazy.

Angela Misri: It’s so true. It’s like, the moment you sign it, immediately you’re like, how do I not do the things I just said I was gonna do.

Chief Maureen Brown: Not only that, but like, they’re supposed to be looking after the best interest of us, First Nation, not taking us to Supreme Court to fight us every step of the way. I mean, come on. You know what I discovered or what I I realized a few years ago? It’s like evolution should not be an option. It should be that we evolve. You know? It should be mandatory?

Angela Misri: Well, in other every other part of our lives, we do try to evolve. So it’s really weird to get stuck in things in the past and argue about things you agreed to in the past.

Chief Maureen Brown: It is a very strange situation we’re in. You know, I, as a Chief, just had this overwhelming sense of the spirit of the gold rush. You know what I mean? And that was very disturbing for me as a chief, to witness that and to feel that spirit of the Gold Rush, you know, come on. That was, how many years ago, one of the biggest issues right now, I would say, with treaty five is, you know, and it becomes laughable, is, is the annuity, and people are tackling that right now. And being the chief of Opaskwayak, I’ve come to recognize the myriad of cases and projects and proposals that we have gone into that we have been basically screwed over, and that has to stop.

Angela Misri: Have you seen any improvement from the latest government?

Chief Maureen Brown: Yes, actually, earlier in July, we were actually in Ottawa, and Prime Minister Carney was there for the whole day. I’ve never been involved in anything like that, where the leader of the government of the country is with us the whole day, listen to what we had to say, and you know, whether or not an individual came there with their own agenda, how they want to move forward? You know, to give that time, because time is precious, time to listen to that part, I noticed a big difference, the willingness to have dialog and collaboration that was hopeful.

Angela Misri: Really good to hear. Really good to hear. Chief Maureen Brown 20:02 – I will say that, you know, we wouldn’t be at the table if they didn’t have to bring us to the table. That’s something to remember.

Angela Misri: Very true. All right. Thank you so much, Chief Brown, we so appreciate the time. Chief Maureen Brown 20:12 – You’re welcome. Have a great day.

Angela Misri: Thank you for listening to Canadian Time Machine. This podcast receives funding from the Government of Canada and is created by The Walrus Lab. This episode was produced by Jasmine Rach and edited by Nathara Jimenez. Amanda Cupido is the executive producer.

For more stories about historic Canadian milestones and the English and French transcripts of this episode, visit the walrus.ca/CanadianHeritage.

There’s also a French counterpart to this podcast called Voyages dans l’histoire canadienne. So if you’re bilingual and want to listen to more, you can find that wherever you get your podcasts.